Rolling Stone<\/em> must be part of it.\u201d<\/p>\n\n
\tThat compliant media, he continues, feeds us the idea that Russia and China are evil, and we by contrast are good. He sees things very differently.<\/p>\n
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\t\u201cOf course, we \u2014 when I say we, I’m now speaking as a taxpayer in the United States \u2014 are not. We are the most evil of all by a factor of at least 10 times,\u201d he says. \u201cWe kill more people. We interfere in more people’s elections. We, the American empire, is doing all this shit.\u201d<\/p>\n
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\tThis factor of 10 idea, I suggest, might not play all that well to any citizen of Ukraine right now \u2014 especially given the mounting evidence of war crimes we’ve seen, including mass graves, the use of rape as a weapon of war, targeting humanitarian convoys, and more. <\/p>\n
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\t\u201cYou’ve seen it on what I’ve just described to you as Western propaganda,\u201d he retorts. \u201cIt’s exactly the obverse of saying Russian propaganda; Russians interfered with our election; Russians did that. It’s all lies, lies, lies, lies.\u201d<\/p>\n
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\tI try to push gingerly through Waters’ brick wall. I haven’t just seen things via corporate media, I say \u2014 I’ve got friends in Ukraine, and friends who went to Ukraine as journalists. I’ve even got friends who are Ukrainian journalists. I’m relying on testimony of people I know who’ve seen things with their own eyes. And it’s not only Ukrainian officials and Western media reporting atrocities \u2014 there are war crimes investigations already underway.<\/p>\n
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\tThis does not go far with Waters. \u201cMaybe\u2026\u201d he wonders, before throwing a curveball. \u201cDon’t forget, I’m on a kill list that is supported by the Ukrainian government. I’m on the fucking list, and they’ve killed people recently.\u2026 But when they kill you, they write ‘liquidated’ across your picture. Well, I’m one of those fucking pictures.\u201d<\/p>\n
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\t\u201cAnd when I read stuff, which I have done in blogs and things, criticizing me for my \u2026 I always go and look and see where it came from. And it’s amazing how often when I’ve done the hunt and hunted it down, it is da, da, da.ukraine.org,\u201d he says, making up a hypothetical Ukrainian web address. <\/p>\n
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\tWaters’ claim isn’t true, but it isn’t completely false, either. There is list maintained by a far-right Ukrainian organization that contains hundreds of thousands of enemies of Ukraine, from alleged members of the Wagner private military company to journalists accused of cooperating with puppet in the Donbas region. The site, which has been roundly internationally condemned \u2014 but not taken down by the Ukrainian government itself \u2014 claims not to be a kill list but rather \u201cinformation for law enforcement authorities and special services.\u201d<\/p>\n
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\tThe impressive visuals for Waters’ tour at one point flash up the message \u201cYou can’t have occupation and human rights.\u201d \u201cI want[ed] to put ‘Fuck the Israeli occupation,’ he says \u2026 and then, ‘Oh no, the words are too long.’\u201d \u2013 Given that message, what is it that makes opposing Israel’s occupation of Palestine a worthy cause, but Ukrainian resistance against Russian invasion a bad one?<\/p>\n
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\t\u201cBecause it’s an unnecessary war,\u201d he says. \u201cAnd those people should not be dying. And Russia should not have been encouraged to invade the Ukraine [Waters insists he is not making a political point by saying \u201cthe Ukraine\u201d] after they tried to avoid it by suggesting diplomatic measures to Western.\u201d<\/p>\n
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\tIn other words, it’s NATO’s fault that Putin decided to invade Ukraine. <\/p>\n
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\tWe’ve reached an impasse, and I’m left no more sure whether resisting Russia’s invasion is wrong because it risks nuclear escalation \u2014 suggesting human rights are only worth fighting for when it’s low-risk \u2014 or whether it’s wrong because Russia should be allowed its sphere of influence, which seems a return not just to imperialism but also to Great Game politics.<\/p>\n
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\tWe need to move on, I suggest, because it’s important to talk about Syria too. Waters has repeatedly condemned US intervention in Syria, which was initially based on not only tackling ISIS but also supporting secular resistance to Bashar al-Assad. I note that by 2017, the US had carried out 11,235 strikes on Syria \u2014 but during the same period, Russia admitted to 71,000 strikes.<\/p>\n
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\t\u201cThere’s a slight difference, in that they were there at the invitation of the Syrian government,\u201d Waters quickly notes. I wonder aloud whether the government of Bashar al-Assad, which was elected with 95.1 percent of the vote in the latest ‘election’ is really a legitimate one. Predictably, Waters has a counterpoint: \u201cI mean, there’s no fair elections in the United States because it’s all bought and paid for because of Citizens United<\/em>\u201d<\/p>\n\n
\tReminding myself that Waters professes that the core of his political philosophy is the UN declaration of human rights, I try again. \u201cA friend of mine who lives here [in the U.K.] now was beaten and tortured, he was electrocuted in Assad’s cells,\u201d I tell Waters. \u201cAnd most of the opposition in Syria is nothing like ISIS. It’s driven by secular people who want freedom. And Assad and Russia have bombed them into oblivion and tortured them and forced them out of the country\u2026\u201d<\/p>\n
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\tWaters demurs to the possibility that this happens and agrees to take it on trust that my friend was indeed tortured. But we are quickly back to the suggestion that chemical attacks in Syria against the opposition were staged \u2014 partly because Waters claims Assad would have no motivated to do so, as it would encourage the West to intervene, even though in reality it didn’t. Waters has \u201cspent a great deal of time studying it\u201d and is satisfied with his conclusions.<\/p>\n
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\t\u201cI can live with myself and go to sleep at night knowing that the story that is being sold by the Western media is propaganda, and it is not the truth. I know the truth,\u201d he says. \u201cAnd I’m sure I’m right about that. The rest of it, your mate who was tortured, I’m sure you are right. I’m not sure you are right, but I would be prepared to believe you.\u201d<\/p>\n
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\tAs we flounder, I ask Waters what his politics actually are \u2014 what unifies these often extreme and incongruent views? \u201cPolitically, my platform is very small,\u201d he says. \u201cIt’s just the declaration of universal human rights in Paris, in 1948. All 29 or 30 articles, however many there are.\u201d<\/p>\n
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\tBeyond the 30 articles of the UN’s declaration of human rights, Waters professes only one more core political concept \u2014 that of \u201cthe bar,\u201d a \u201csafe place\u201d where people can \u201cexchange our feelings and ideas freely and frankly without fear of retribution. \u201d<\/p>\n
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\tIf Waters and I are in the \u201cbar,\u201d it’s a pretty fractious dive bar, at best. Waters is charming and courteous, but our conversation repeatedly generates into animated shouting and interruption \u2014 and that’s before we inevitably get to the issue of Israel.<\/p>\n
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\t\u201cI’m absolutely not antisemitic, absolutely not,\u201d Waters says. \u201cThat hasn’t stopped all the assholes trying to smear me with being an antisemite.\u201d<\/p>\n
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\tWhat follows is a back-and-forth as we try to establish some basics. Waters doesn’t accept the standard IHRA (International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance) definition of antisemitism. Does the state of Israel have a right to exist? \u201cSaying Israel does not have a right to exist as an apartheid state, any more than South Africa did or anywhere else would, is not antisemitic,\u201d Waters counters.<\/p>\n
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\tWaters says what he criticizes is \u201cthe fact that they are a supremacist, settler colonialist project that operates a system of apartheid.\u201d This quickly descends into ancient history \u2014 the Jewish people have a history in the region of Israel that goes back millennia, I say. Doesn’t that make \u201csettler\u201d quite an offensive term? \u201cNo, it’s not. Those people are not from there. They are not the descendants of indigenous people who’ve ever lived there.\u201d This is not only untrue for many Israeli citizens, it also serves to minimize the horror and suffering that came before the founding of Israel, and the desire for a Jewish homeland that instilled.<\/p>\n
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\tI try to tackle one more question relating to Israel. In 2020, Waters sang the lyric \u201cWe’ll walk hand in hand and we’ll take back the land, from the Jordan river to the sea.\u201d Was Waters aware that \u201cfrom the river to the sea\u201d is a term often used to describe either the destruction of Israel or the relocation of all of Israel’s Jewish population to somewhere else \u2014 and thus received with horror by many Israeli people and Jewish people alike ?<\/p>\n
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\t\u201cNo, bollocks. It’s just a geographical description of the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. It has no connotation for me apart from that,\u201d he says. \u201cNobody’s suggesting that they all have to leave, which is what they suggested to the indigenous people there in 1948.\u201d<\/p>\n
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\tI wrap up the interview shortly afterwards \u2014 with neither of us having convinced the other of anything. Waters’ live show repeatedly flashes up one particular message that clearly compels him: \u201cControl the narrative, rule the world.\u201d <\/p>\n
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\tI leave the interview thinking it’s almost the opposite: Waters is an example of how we can construct our own narrative and twist the world to fit in, with no amount of mainstream media, propaganda, or even real-world facts and evidence able to let any light in. It leads us to a nihilistic place, where we are only able to feel compassion for victims that fit our personal narrative, minimising or even actively denying the suffering of others. It’s sufficiently bleak that I feel almost wistful for a world with a shared narrative, even if it’s one controlled by a oh-so-malignant media.<\/p>\n
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\tRoger Waters and I have managed to avoid having a bar fight. But as I leave I know one thing for sure: I really need a drink.<\/p>\n
\n\tHere is a lightly-edited transcript of the full conversation between Roger Waters and James Ball, which touched on multiple additional topics. It has been altered lightly for flow and for clarity \u2013 the unedited transcript was around 13,300 words. The edited transcript is 12,000 words long and includes the full context for every quote used in the article.<\/em> To hear an audio version of the full interview, press play above or listen on Apple Podcasts or Spotify<\/em>.<\/p>\n\n\tJames Ball is the global editor of the Bureau of Investigative Journalism. He was on the Pulitzer Prize winning teams that reported the Edward Snowden leaks and the Panama Papers. He is also the co-host of The New Conspiracist podcast. <\/em> <\/p>\n<\/div>\n